TriKOR
Supplementary Commentary, Q&ATriKOR
Supplementary Commentary, Q&A
The purpose of this section is to provide some additional commentary and material about the KOR love triangle that would hopefully answer some of the questions that people may have. Orange Road relationships get complicated sometimes, and that may confuse many fans about the hows and whys of the characters' actions- especially of the whimsical Madoka. Questions that I have been asked by page visitors form some of the issues discussed here. These are the topics that are currently covered on this page, more or less in the order discussed (use the "back" button on your browser to return here):
Where to go find out more about Kimagure Orange Road
These are some places to start looking at:
My responses and comments to the commentaries and questions below would be shown in RED. Excepts are shown here with permission from the writers. They may contain some quotes from my page or email, shown in BLUE.
Bob Barnes (rbarnes@moscow.com) Jan 5, 1997:
-I have excluded the KOR movie because I don't consider it a smooth flow from the tv series (I won't list all the inconsistencies I noticed, and I'm not just talking about the personalities of the main characters) In that regard, parts of the OVAs are also like that in that if I try to discuss all of them together along with the Movie and the tv series, there would be too many incongruencies that I would then have to explain. I wanted to focus on the feel and the development of the tv series. Perhaps at another time, I would add an addendum section to the TriKOR page that would include the Movie, the OVAs, and if I read more than just one volume that I had, the manga. I do notice how different it is in the manga.
-As a consequence of that decision, I called it as I saw the tv series only. Nothing outside of it was considered. I actually did considered writing in the movie for the Trio section. Had that happened, that page would have been very different- graphics, music, everything. But in the end I decided to keep it tidy and stick to the tv series. I think I should put something on my page stating that I'm dealing exclusively with the tv series.
One of the conclusions I've come to is that Kyosuke's indecisiveness is a red herring. True, he's indecisive when it comes to mundane things like which socks to wear, but I don't think he's indecisive at all when it comes to important things like right and wrong and his feelings about Madoka and Hikaru. Something that makes him seem to act indecisive from time to time, though, is his fear of having to leave if the ESP secret gets out. It's a defense mechanism. When confronted with a situation where he might have to reveal the secret, he acts like an indecisive idiot to cover up. How many times have you noticed him dodging embarassing questions by putting his hand on the back of his head and laughing that silly embarassed laugh rather than answering the question? And how many times has he actually been thinking something like, "Gomen, Ayukawa (or Hikaruchan), I can't say this."
The main reason I don't think Kyosuke is all that indecisive is that I needed, for myself, to try to understand the Movie and it's connection to the main characters.
-The behavior of the characters are different. It is more than just a difference in behaviors, however. It is a difference in characterization also, and that almost made them different characters.
-I did not read very deeply into the Movie. I saw it as a device for the resolution of the triangle in a dramatic, realistic (the director wanted it that way), and emotional manner. I read it simply as this: in one of my pages, I posed the question "could things stay like this for long?" and in the Movie, the answer is "yes, quite. However, that made the resolution more desperate and painful." Madoka just couldn't stand it anymore. Her distress conveyed those emotions.
What we have to accept is that Kyosuke comes early in the triangle relationship to a very mature understanding of an important truth about what is actually going on.
-I see him as just trying his best to cope with a consistently bad and sometimes painful situation. He wants Madoka. He does not want to break Hikaru's heart. So was the dillema that haunted Kyousuke. I very much doubt he could see as far as you say in his seishun... it looks like we have quite different views regarding the characters' understanding of their situation. This could be a good topic for a discussion somewhere.
-(looking back, the difference in views was probably caused by the simple fact that I only took the tv series into account while deliberately leaving out the Movie because that would make things inconsistent. I would like to remind everybody who have only seen the Movie and the OVA that what goes on there is nothing like what goes on in the tv series. Except that the OVA series is closer in feel to the tv series. "Message in Rouge" OVA has much of the original flavor and tension intact. The other OVAs are a little washed out, in my opinion. I still like them though, as well as the Movie.)
The truth is that the key person in resolving the triangle isn't him at all. It's Ayukawa. Kyosuke simply cannot resolve the triangle in the way he wants. Ayukawa must do that.
-Again, we as audiences can certainly see that. It is possible to resolve the triangle, but that would involve Kyousuke having a different personality, namely decisive. The orange road series is the way it is due to the personality flaws of each of the main characters, by design.
I am making some basic assumptions here that I should
explain:
-Those 7 assumptions sound right to me
1. Kyosuke, from the beginning, wants Ayukawa, not Hikaru.
2. Ayukawa loves Kyosuke very much from the beginning, and that never changes,
though she may try hard to deny it to herself.
3. Hikaru's feelings for Kyosuke are also constant from the start.
4. Hikaru would be very badly hurt if Kyosuke publicly confessed his love
for Ayukawa.
5. Ayukawa would react very badly if Hikaru were hurt.
6. Ayukawa has promised Hikaru to help her win Kyosuke, and she'll have
to break that promise to confess to Kyosuke. (This is in the tv series
but isn't emphasized as much as in the manga)
7. Ayukawa is constantly on the edge of running away from the whole thing
because she is normally willing to sacrifice her own feelings for the sake
of a friend or loved one.
Added to these assumptions, which may be arguable, are some facts about the characters that I think are fairly obvious:
1. Breaking a promise is an unthinkable sin, to Ayukawa.
2. Every time Ayukawa weakens and shows some of her true
feelings to Kyosuke, she is "encouraging" him and skirting the
edge of breaking her promise and hurting Hikaru. She is sort of punishing
_herself_ when she puts on the deep freeze act after each of those "close
calls" in the series.
-I think she just was't ready to embrace Kyousuke yet, and certainly not in public. She has to maintain her cool, because she has been so cool for so long. It was not easy for her to break out of that image of herself that she puts up both for herself and the public to see. Some ideas in the manga probably show up in the tv series, just in different ways.
Now, the biggest assumption of all is that Kyosuke is mature (or lucky) enough to realize all this. I know it's a stretch, but a lot makes sense if we assume this. Especially, the movie. Consider this: If we assume all these things, then Ayukawa has to come to some hard conclusions before she can confess to Kyosuke.
-(keep in mind that Bob is taking the Movie into account, which I didn't do on TriKOR)
1. Ayukawa must come to understand and believe that she simply cannot keep her promise to Hikaru. Ayukawa has to believe that Kyosuke's love for her is constant and unwavering and that he will never love Hikaru no matter what she (Ayukawa) does. Even if she leaves for America, Kyosuke will simply pine away for her, and still not give his love to Hikaru. It's not really breaking a promise, if the promise is impossible to keep. This is very hard, indeed, for Ayukawa to accept because she thinks in black and white, and this is a kind of grey area. As a side issue, if Ayukawa were to die, then maybe Kyosuke might turn to Hikaru for comfort and come to love her. Do you think there are hints in the show that Ayukawa may, from time to time, be thinking about this?
2. The next hard conclusion that Ayukawa has to come to, after the impossibility of her promise to Hikaru, is that she doesn't just want Kyosuke but that she needs him. This goes directly to Ayukawa's tendency to ignore her own desires in order to be good to her friends. This one is very difficult, because of her near fetish of self reliance and strength. She sees needing another person's love as a weakness, and she has never allowed herself to be weak. If all she does is want Kyosuke, that's possible to ignore and deny, and she will do that, mostly. Needs, on the other hand, are impossible to ignore for long. An example of the evidence that she has to accept is that after meeting Kyosuke she changes from a failing, near deliquent student to getting top grades. I'm afraid this is from the manga and isn't shown in the tv series.
3. After concluding those two tough ones, Ayukawa has to accept and understand that she is "worthy" of Kyosuke. Consider that she is an outsider who is more or less shunned by her classmates when she and Kyosuke first meet. At this time, she is trying hard to act as if this doesn't matter to her, but she's awfully lonely. It's partly a matter of pride and partly a matter of believing her own reputation as a bad girl. From the first, Kyosuke simply won't play, and constantly behaves in a supportive and inclusive way to her. His applause in the gym early in the series is an example. So, he's a "goody goody" and she's a "bad girl" at least by reputation. This isn't easy for her to accept and she has to in order to accept his love for her. This aspect is much more marked in the manga. Matsumoto was even quoted in a recent interview as saying he had to tone down his original Madoka for the Jump manga. His original conception had Madoka being much more the "bad girl" and in his own words "definately not a virgin." And this girl is only 15 in the beginning of the series. His original idea was that Kyosuke was the first boy to like her for herself and not just as someone to have fun with.
-The "bad girl" did not came up in the movie, but considering the tv series, that might have been one of the factors.
-What you said made perfect sense, if you only consider the movie by itself. Trying to link the characterizations from the tv series and the movies would be made difficult by inconsistencies. Linking OVAs with the tv series would easier because the characterizations, although still having differences, are closer together.
4. Finally, Ayukawa has to bite the bullet and decide that she is willing to accept the fallout of confessing her love for Kyosuke. Mostly, this means that she will, at least temporarily, loose Hikaru's friendship, and that may be the hardest thing of all.
Now, to some reactions I had to some of the things in your page:
>If Kyousuke had been more
decisive, he would have gritted his teeth
>and made the painful choice.
I think that this would have resulted in disaster and I think Kyosuke knew this. Consider this scenario. Halfway through the tv series Kyosuke suddenly declares his love for Madoka and dumps Hikaru. Hikaru has a meltdown and does something very stupid and self destructive. Wracked by guilt, Madoka hops a plane to the U.S. to live with her folks. Kyosuke goes into mourning for his lost love.
-It doesn't have to be that way. I for one could think up ways of dealing with this if I were him... then again, I'm NOT him! (I sure wish though) But there's also the point that if Kyousuke was not the indecisive way that he was, Madoka might not have fallen in love with him. He possessed qualities that were endearing to her. After Kyousuke messed up and showed her the wrong photo (ep. 8), she walked away, apparently upset. But when she said "clumsy, isn't he?" to herself in another hallway, she didn't have half of an angry look on her face.
I truly believe that Kyosuke simply wasn't the one who could make the choice, and have things turn out at all well. The choice was Madoka's.
>"Daaa-RIN!" Hikaru comes running
toward Kyousuke. What should he do?
>should he step away from Madoka and try to bear the full weight of
I think this is a very nice summary of Kyosuke's dilemma. The answer to "what should he do?" is just what he did. Let Hikaru jump on him, accept Madoka's temporary rejection, bide his time and take every advantage of every opportunity to display his love for Madoka in a way that she can accept. That's why the "White Lovers" and "Message in Rouge" OVA's are among my very favorite shows. By falling into the lava with Madoka, and sending her home to her father he is showing her his love with no possibility of being misunderstood or minimized. Opportunities for doing that don't come to him very often, but he never seems to miss them when they do.
>Then what about Hikaru? What if you are her,
trying the hardest
>you can to win the heart of the only man you have ever loved
The reason why love triangles are a staple of romance stories is that they are inherently dramatic. Sadly they always involve at least some tragedy and in this case Hikaru is the tragic figure. The fact that Matsumoto made Hikaru such a wonderful person only sharpens the tragedy. She has to be asking herself, "what's wrong with me?" The answer is: Nothing at all is wrong with Hikaru, she's just the wrong person. She's just not Madoka Ayukawa. She's just like someone trapped in the path of an avalanche. A victim of circumstance beyond her control.
>If Hikaru wasn't so blind, she would have
seen right away that
>Kyousuke had already fallen for Madoka on the many occations
>where it was painfully obvious.
That sums up Hikaru's position very well, I think. In the movie she says something about knowing that Kyosuke loved Madoka, but that she kept on hoping she could change him. It's very moving because it's so real. Everyone of us has known someone like Hikaru... In fact, many of us have _been_ Hikaru.
>If Madoka had been more forthright with her
feelings, she could have
>either forced Kyousuke to choose or confronted Hikaru about Kyousuke.
True... so true. But it was soooo hard for Madoka to do either one of those things. In a way, she had to become a different person to do it, and the power to make that nearly impossible change came from the love that she and Kyosuke felt for each other.
>they're well, and care for each other when
they're ill. They bask in
>their other's radiance and brighten each other's days, enjoying
>the times they are together.
This is a great summary! And an example of Matsumoto's genius. Despite the tragedy and pain that lurks at the core of the triangle like a landmine waiting to be stepped on, the characters and we the audience have fun... a lot of fun. It's a terrific example of dramatic tension.
>They have become an inseperable part of each
other lives, and it doesn't >matter what may happen in the future, they
will >always be...
>...The best of friends.
At least we can sure hope so. Have you had a chance to read the Shin KOR novels?
-Yeah, and are they different! Especially SKII. Not what I might call Kimagure.
-(Shin Kimagure Orange Road was a series of two novels written by the original creator of KOR that was set two years after the end of the KOR Movie: I want to return to those days. They are very different in feel from everything that went before that. Not only were they serious in nature, they had adult themes as well. Recently, a Shin KOR Movie was shown in Japanese theaters.)
In Shin KORII there is a very very interesting scene in which Madoka has a sort of epiphany when she realizes the cummulative effect on her of knowing and loving Kyosuke. Hikaru has gone off and grown and matured while having some pretty hard times. Madoka has been sort of cradled and cushioned by having Kyosuke's love and support, in the meantime. The result is that, while once Madoka was the much stronger big sister figure and Hikaru depended on her, now Hikaru is much the stronger and more independent of the two. The epiphany was when she almost gasped at the realization that she didn't mind, and in fact was glad and grateful that things had worked out this way. Madoka liked herself as she was, and that's a priceless thing to win from life, and something she very definately didn't have as a child when she first met Kyosuke.
Ken (goddess@netcom.ca) Jan 7, 1997
I've only watch "I am a cat, and a fish", and only read two volumes of KOR, but I don't think I am quite understand the situation between Kyousuke, Madoka and Hikaru ( that's her name right ? ) I think Kyousuke kinda know that Madoka loves him right ? and Madoka knows she loves Kyousuke, but because of Hikaru, so Madoka doesn't want to show her feeling ?
-Kyousuke is always guessing about Madoka, and Madoka always keeps him guessing by being the whimsical way that she is. Kyousuke is always insecure about how Madoka feels about him. If she is nice to him one night, the next morning she might or might not be nice to him again. I think Madoka understands everything better than Kyousuke and Hikaru put together. Hikaru understands nothing except that she loves Kyousuke. Kyousuke doesn't really know what Madoka is thinking and doesn't really know what to do with Hikaru either execept to keep her in the dark about Madoka and him.
(spoiler alert!) Madoka loved Kyousuke, but she doesn't admit that to herself and to Kyousuke until the last episode of the tv series.
Yes, because of Hikaru, Madoka doesn't want to show her feelings toward Kyousuke. However, that's only part of the reason why. It also has to do with the loner tough-girl image she projects for herself to everybody. At school, she gets close to nobody. There's a lot of things in the tv series that could be analysed episode-by-episode. It's quite complicated sometimes.
Bob Barnes (rbarnes@moscow.com) Jan 9, 1997:
I've had several people tell me that they would just as soon the KOR Movie had never been made. I don't see it that way. It is a product of the creators of the series, and their ideas and vision ought to get a good look by us, the fans. That's not to say I _like_ the movie. On the contrary, it was one of the most difficult to watch things I've ever experienced. As for the inconsistancies, I've always figured the roughly two year gap between the tv series and the movie accounted for them. People change a whole lot during those years of growing up. The biggest flaw of the movie is what it leaves out, but Matsumoto explained that in an interview I've read. He was intentionally telling the story of the resolution of the triangle and that's it. If nothing else, the movie gives us a metaphorical look into the minds of the creators of KOR and can give us a bit of understanding of what they intended with their characters.
>for so long. It was not easy for her to break
out of that image of
>herself that she puts up both for herself and the public to see. Some
>ideas in the manga probably show up in the tv series, just in different
ways.
Definately true, and not just for Madoka. Hikaru, for example, is a lot fuller and more rounded character in the Manga. In the tv series we often see the outcome without seeing the cause. The manga has the room to let us see both in many cases.
In the anime timeline, most of the OVA's fall after the series and all of them come before the movie. I think maybe what you are seeing as inconsistancies are actually signs of growing up and changing with age and accumulation of experience.
-----
66) When do the OAV's take place?
The exact time period is not clear, the following
are approximation at best, and to some degree, speculation.
White Lovers ................ ep 35-45
Hawaii Suspense ............. ep 15-25
I was a cat, I was a fish ... ep 15-30
Hurricane Akane ............. ep 20-25
Spring is for idol .......... ep 23-30
Birth of a star ............. ep 23-30
Unexpected Situation ........ after Hurricane Akane
Message in Rouge ............ after ep 48 (ignoring Madoka's sister's boyfriend
remark)
-----
All OVAs but "Message in Rouge" takes place somewhere within the timeline of the tv series. Even so, the general mood and characterization does differ from the tv series. I saw the OVAs before I saw the tv series and again afterwards, and I detected significant differences, except Message in Rouge. That one was quite similar. Others might have been somewhere in the middle. But take ones like "I was a cat, I was a fish", "Hawaiian Suspense", and "Hurricane Akane" for example- the atmosphere was definitely different. As for characterization, I'll probably have to watch them again for me to nickpick accurately... :) I suspect the author of the FAQ used the manga in his approximations.
As for the movie, as I mentioned before there was more than characterization involved in the inconsistencies. Take what I've mentioned on the KOR mailing list, for example. They have already declared their love for each other at the end of ep. 48, but yet it seemed otherwise in the movie where they were still insecure toward each other and needed to declare love(again).
>But there's also the point
that if Kyousuke was not the indecisive way
>that he was, Madoka might not have fallen in love with him. He possessed
>qualities that were endearing to her. After Kyousuke messed up and
>showed her the wrong photo (ep. 8), she walked away, apparently upset.
>But when she said "clumsy, isn't he?" to herself in another
hallway, she
>didn't have half of an angry look on her face.
Considering that nearly every other male in the KOR universe is either a perverted twit or a rapist wannabe, I suspect that what most of us interpret at indecisiveness Madoka saw as gentleness. Good example, BTW of Madoka's real feelings. Another is in the episode where Kazuya is introduced where Madoka says something like, "I can't seem to get mad at him (referring to Kazuya who looks a lot like Kyosuke). I seem to be able to forgive anything he does."
-(that was "I want to give him everything he wants")
-Look at some of the other male protagonists in anime that are really popular with the anime girls around them- Morisato Keiichi, and that guy in El Hazard, Saotome Ranma, Tenchi... starting to see a pattern? They all are vulnerable in some way, most of them screw up on a regular basis, some of them are quite whimpy and you feel sorry for them for their hard luck (and therefore root for them)...
All comments regarding KOR or the material in TriKOR are welcome. Your comments are kept private and confidential until I have permission to reprint.
I am also looking for people who have read at least most of the KOR manga to write addendums to my page which would analyse the KOR love triangle in terms of the manga because I have not read much of the manga. Alternatively, you can create your own pages and I'll link to you. Proper credit will be given to the authors. Email me if you are interested.