Nausicaa was first shown in France at the 13th cinema festival, at Corbeil-Essonnes (in 1992), along with Totoro, Grave of the Fireflies, Kiki, OPP, Laputa and Goshu the Cellist (Serohiki no Gooshu). Takahata- san was even there!
So, this is a translation of Takahata-san's interview. There may be
some grammatical errors, so please e-mail any comments or corrections to
me (Ken Elescor) at
This is done without the explicit authorization of the article's
author; however I think there is no problem since my friend Cao Olivier
(the real owner of this account) is a member of the staff of the magazine
AnimeLand.
------------------------------ cut here --------------------------------
Mr. ISAO TAKAHATA
Mr. Isao Takahata was without a doubt the main personality at the
Corbeil-Essonnes festival. Our meeting was quite surprising (in fact, I
think I was the one who was really surprised). I met him in the second
evening during the official days of the festival, at the dinner. He
showed such an interest for everything which surrounds him, such a
sensibility and such a curiosity that I don't know if I could call these
pages an interview. As far as I'm concerned, I rather felt it as a
situation of confrontation between two cultures, each one giving proof of
a very deep curiosity towards the other. I don't know if, writing it
down, I could give you this feeling which expresses itself in his whole
behaviour and not only in his speech. For instance, he recorded some of
our talks with a beautiful miniaturized Sony radio set, perhaps to study
French language when he'd be back in Japan (come to that, this gave me
the occasion to be quoted in ANIMAGE). Doing that, he showed the extreme
relativity of our respective parts. In a way, he was inverting the parts
of the interviewer and the interviewee.
Perhaps the first thing to do is to describe him to you.
Physically, he looks like a standard 50-year-old -- maybe younger --
Japanese man, a little smaller than the average. He spends a lot of time
smoking. (Philippe LHOSTE said: "I saw Mr. Takahata stand up to take an
ashtray. I'll be able to tell it to my grandchildren!") [*1] Moreover,
he has a deep voice, talks little, and thinks silently for a long time
when asked a question before answering, which doesn't prevent him from
asking for the question to be repeated as soon as his curiosity is
awakened. Isao Takahata is the main lead of Studio Ghibli, along with
his friend and colleague Hayao Miyazaki. He is the great author of
_Serohiki no Goshu_ [Goshu the Cellist], _Hotaru no Haka_ [Grave of the
Fireflies] and _Omohide Poro Poro_ [Falling Tears of Remembrance].
I met this exceptional man at table while he was coming back from
the location from whence comes the famous rose of Versailles. After a
few brief presentations during which I talked with him about European
paronama, we began the present discussion.
--
- Cedric Littardi: Mr. Takahata, I quite admire Japanese animation in
general. It's why I'd first like to know what your favourite anime are,
besides the ones you or Mr. Miyazaki produced.
Then we had to part company: he had to rest to prepare himself for
the hard events of the day after. But the next day, once again, as he
promised, he talked to all the magazine's staff (that was there this
time) and to myself (we ate breakfast together) to explain some of the
reasons of his inspiration, fundamentally based on Japanese culture.
- I.T.: Here. This book contains the reproduction of a Twelth
Century Japanese parchment. (He showed us a book containing the
representation of a Japanese parchment which must be very long since each
page represented a part of this parchment; thus, if they were torn out
and placed side by side, we would have the entire linear parchment.) The
original is made with two tubes around which are affixed the rolled
parchment. Thus, the two tubes would be rolled by hand simultaneously so
as to unthread the scenes. Thus, we have the first Japanese animated
scene of history. On the other hand, the scenario is explained in
ideograms at peculiar passages.
So the story took place: of an incendiary who is eventually found
and punished by the Emperor. Stylistic effects are plentiful: movement
in the reading direction or in the opposite one, the presence of the same
character several times in the same scene to show his movement, the
characterization of faces, all expressing different emotions (for these,
the work was focused solely on manipulations of the effects of light and
shade which was very elaborate),... It would be very difficult to explain
everything, since we'd have to show you these documents to explain their
plastic meaning.... In a methodic way, thus revealing a pedagogical mind
-- so much so that he took care to describe each scene and each detail
which he talked with us about later -- he kept on turning the pages,
helping us discover the document. His ostensible purpose was to make us
understand that the style used nowadays in the anime industry did not
date back to the discovery of Walt Disney, but longer ago. In this
document, we recognized the strokes of the outlines which made the
characters, cinematographic plans, and an idea of the (virtual)
movements, thanks to only the reading direction.
- I.T.: The basis of such works have to be understood. They are mere
scenes of everyday life, expressed in the slightest detail. This is an
integral part of the Japanese culture, this is a very old translation.
Moreover, please note the very expressive features of every face. You
see, when I wanted to produce these full length films, no one thought
that the subjects chosen could be done as an anime. They were wrong.
The culture, the one which comes from our culture, explains for the most
part all that we can find in anime nowadays. And, try to remember one
thing, which counts the most: it is not the real, nor even the
relationship with the real; it is only the line and the way of drawing.
--
FOOTNOTES:
-- Olivier Cao
--
Thanks to Cedric Littardi, Mr. Takahata and Mrs. Ueki, manager of
the Ucore Company (which helped in bringing us the festival). And to
Olivier Cao for lending me his magazine (and having helped in its
translation). And to Steven for correcting my errors, and to everyone
on the Nausicaa newsgroup who read my translation.
--
- Isao Takahata: To tell the truth, I don't really have time to watch
my contemporaries' anime. My work keeps me very busy and allows me
little time to do anything else. On the other hand, I'd like to know
what you'd answer if you were in my place.
- C.L.: I admit this is a delicate question. If I excepted Studio
Ghibli's works, I'd pick the spectacular _Honneamise no Tsubasa_ [The
Wings of Honneamise] produced by Gainax. Do you know this work?
- I.T.: Yes, I know it. I've already had an occasion to watch it.
- C.L.: And, did you enjoy it?
- I.T.: (pause) No, not really.
- C.L.: Oh?! And why?
- I.T.: I'd like to get a better understanding of why you admire this
work so much.
- C.L.: It is not evident to explain. Perhaps, because it is a
wonderful science-fiction work, produced in a exceptional way, with deep
and expressive characters who experience a spectacular evolution.
Moreover, there is this parallel world, created in a very accurate way,
even in the very details. It is true that it is very different from
your own works. Is that why you don't like it?
- I.T.: I'd simply say that it is a matter of personal taste.
- C.L.: Nonetheless, there should be some anime which had influenced
you. Which ones induced you to do this job?
- I.T.: I have to say that I'm very happy to be in France because it
is a country I really like. (C.L.'s note: I aknowledge some time after
that he reads French -- even if his conversation was a little limited --
and that he even translated some works on some French artists.) My
career perhaps began thanks to my admiration for Paul Grimault. That's
why I'm very glad to be able to show my movies here.
- C.L.: How do you place yourself in comparison with the
international reference in matter of anime, i.e. Walt Disney?
- I.T.: I really enjoyed the first ones -- namely, _Fantasia_,
_Pinocchio_ and _Snow White_. But my own sensibility gradually and
naturally took me away from the Disney Studios' full length films.
- C.L.: So, which are the works which influenced you the most?
- I.T.: Well, I quite admire the Canadian, Frederick Back, and the
Russian, Yuri Norstein.
- C.L.: Then, why don't you try to use similar drawing techniques
(i.e. cut pieces of paper or pastel drawings)?
- I.T.: It's simply a question of money. Their techniques are much
more expensive than ours, much more conventional. That's why they are
not used in Japan; production costs would be too high.
- C.L.: You said that you like European cinematography. Did it
influence you?
- I.T.: Yes, that's right, I watched many European films and
especially French ones. They help me a lot to obtain such a result in my
work.
- C.L.: However, some of your full-length films, in particular the
splendid _Omohide Poro Poro_, could have been done as live films. So you
chose to make them anime films to convey visual expressions, to express
emotions, feelings, that you'd never be able to reach with actors in the
cinematographic reality.
- I.T.: That is exactly what I intended to do in _Omohide Poro Poro_,
and I'm very glad you realized that.
- C.L.: Congratulations! You were really successful in doing it.
- I.T.: This is possible. I'd have something else to say to you
about what inspired me, as well as any other anime producer in Japan.
But, for this, I need some documents. So, I'll tell you about it
tomorrow.
- C.L.: I really thank you for this. About the production, I'd like
to know exactly which are the respective roles you and Mr. Miyazaki play,
since in Europe, there is a tendency to confuse your two works and to
accredit them to your colleague.
- I.T.: Yet, there is a noticeable difference. You don't see it
because you don't speak Japanese.
- C.L.: Did you work on some series like _Shojo Alps no Heiji_
[Heidi, Girl of the Alps] or_Lupin III_, for instance?
- I.T.: I was the editor for Heidi during the whole series. As for
Lupin, I managed the production committee in which Miyazaki was working.
- C.L.: I see. I'd also like to know why you suddenly began to
produce full length films.
- I.T.: Simply because I couldn't achieve any personal satisfaction
with short length films. Besides, today, to produce a beautiful anime
for TV is impossible, since the budget for one TV episode hasn't
increased for the last ten years, in spite of the increase in price of
production costs.
- C.L.: How much is the budget of an anime in Japan?
- I.T.: It depends a lot; between 100 and 800 million Yen.
- C.L.: I seize this opportunity to ask you: to whom are your movies
aimed?
- I.T.: To everyone, in general. I wish, nonetheless, to make clear
that _Omohide Poro Poro_ isn't suitable, of course, to the youngest;
let's say you could watch it above 10 years.
- C.L.: Are your movies extracted from novels?
- I.T.: In general, I choose to produce adaptations of literary
works. I often used to work on foreign works, already at the time when I
was producing series. _Hotaru no Haka_ is the adaptation of an
autobiographical Japanese novel written by Nosaka AKUYUKI; but the book
became famous only after the movie was out. With regard to _Omohide Poro
Poro_, only some parts of the storyline come from a novel -- which was
already more than ten years old.
- C.L.: Don't you think that _Hotaru no Haka_ is a little sad for a
child? I have not met yet someone who was not reduced to tears after
having watching it.
- I.T.: I think that today we can hardly watch a natural death. For
instance, people generally die in a hospital nowadays. I'd call it a
scientific death. All I wished to find, beyond sadness, it is a
straighter way to show things.
- C.L.: And, what about grown-ups? For a European person, it seems
impossible to see grown-ups watching anime. The cultural barrier which
separate each one from the other seems quite incommensurable. Could it
be because they grew up, watching anime?
- I.T.: It is quite likely. In Japan, grown-ups very much like
anime, especially since _Kaze no Tani no Nausicaa_ [Nausicaa of the
Valley of Wind], and they often take their children to watch them on
week-ends, thus allowing the two generations to bring themselves together
through entertainment. The average public is between 15 and 20, but, as
I said, there are still more grown-ups since 1984.
- C.L.: Yes, I understand well the part that played the first big
Miyazaki('s work) for every public. Of all Miyazaki's works, which one
do the young Japanese like the most?
- I.T.: I think I can state positively that it is _Tonari no Totoro_
[My Neighbor Totoro], a movie every child in Japan really loves.
- C.L.: So do I. But I think I prefer the famous _Tenku no Shiro
Laputa_ [Castle in the Sky Laputa]. What were your expectations in
producing this movie? And where does its name come from?
- I.T.: The name of the island comes from _Gulliver's Travels_, the
famous Swift work. Laputa was an island which was floating in the air
and wasn't receiving sunshine because it was too evil -- which explains
the negative connotation of its name which is derived from the word
"bitch" ("puta" in Spanish, and "pute" in French). But the storyline was
modified considerably and now has nothing to do with the original Laputa.
Miyazaki and I worked to make a real adventure movie. Yet, nowadays,
there is no uneducated country, because they all know the world's
secrets. We decided not to do like Spielberg, i.e. to locate the world's
secret beyond the earth, in the universe. We wanted to make a movie
whose action takes place on earth, because it is our earth.
- C.L.: I also greatly admire Joe Hisaishi's music. His works are
aknowledged outside the context of the movies for which he wrote the
soundtracks.
- I.T.: Indeed, he wrote magnificent pieces of music. Come to that,
I was the one who was in charge of putting them in the full length films.
Before Nausicaa, he was composing "minimal music" -- a very different
kind of music.
- C.L.: I never heard about it. What is it?
- I.T.: It is modern music, composed with a limited number of sounds
which are repeated continually, from which comes the name. I'd have
liked to have had such a talented composer for my movies.
- C.L.: But, at the beginning, all Studio Ghibli's movies were made
profitable. It is very difficult to pay off such expensive anime in only
one country.
- I.T.: It has only been since _Majo no Takkyubin_ [Kiki's Delivery
Service] that our productions have become profitable. None of the
previous ones paid off, in spite of their great popularity -- unless we
take into account the selling of derived products and rights, in which
case, we can consider the balance positive.
- C.L.: With such a budget, you nonetheless have never used computer
means to make the animation, have you?
- I.T.: No, everything was done manually.
- C.L.: In France, our national pride circulates the rumor that there
could be a collaboration between Mr. Miyazaki and Jean Giraud (Moebius).
What is the truth?
- I.T.: Surely, both men regard the other highly. However, at the
present time, we have to exclude the hypothesis of any work in common for
a simple reason: both have very strong personalities.
- C.L.: I understand; but on the other hand, were your works issued
in foreign countries? For instance, we watched tapes from the American
version (with 30 minutes cut) of _Kaze no Tani no Nausicaa_.
- I.T.: Yes, indeed. They showed me this version, as well. It is
absolutely horrible! They did an enormous and aberrant censorship; they
cut Hisaishi's pieces of music, without forgetting the changed dialogues.
It was a great error of Studio Ghibli and we haven't given broadcast
rights to foreign countries since; and we'll never again give such rights
without an attentive examination of the condition beforehand. [Note from
Ken: it seems like France has filled these conditions since we have the
rights to broadcast (this will be done next year) both Porco Rosso and
Totoro.] For that matter, the international rights for Nausicaa given to
the U.S.A. will be over in 2 or 3 years. All these movies are grounded
strongly in Japanese culture and are not conceived with an eye towards
exportation. Censoring them is worse than betraying them. [Note from
Ken: there is an Italian proverb that goes, "Translator, traitor"
("Traduttore, traditore," if my memory serves me). ;) ] This festival
constitutes the first public broadcasting in a foreign country and I have
to admit that I am very surprised by the public's reaction. Anyway,
we're still very afraid of how our products will be used in foreign
countries.
- C.L.: Indeed, we know these problems. We try to obtain a better
respect for Japanese anime, so as to maintain a level the nearest
possible of the original work. Most certainly, this attempt is often
hopeless, but we remain a dissenting voice.
- I.T.: (here, Mr. Takahata begins to speak French) I... er... agree
with what you're doing.
[*1] Philippe LHOSTE is "a head person among French otakus. A
'french.otaku.personality,' if you will. He wrote many articles in many
anime French fanzines, and even one in a Canadian anime fanzine --
namely, Protoculture Addicts; it was an article about anime in France --
and founded an anime APA [Amateur Press Association club] in France."
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| Ken Elescor | "Among all wines, passion is the one which makes you |
| "The Postman" | the most drunk; but unlike other wines, once you get |
| cao_o@epita.fr | drunk by passion, you can never recover your mind." |
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[Ken Elescor